Abby and I ended up having a side-discussion about the New Testament and the evidence for Jesus, which I've posted here.

Abby wrote: Your website is probably the single most ridiculous website I have come across in years. Congrats on that. First of all, that person (one love) who you have an entire page dedicated to, handed you YOUR A** in the debate of the Jesus myth!!! I would literally pay money to see the 2 of you talk face to face. Your response to this person is pretty much what I would expect from you after reading your home page. I found it absolutely hysterical that you demand MORE proof for each - Mithra, Horus and Dionysus - than even exists for Jesus!! You want exact quotes from specific, named sources that date back to 1 A.D. Yet you don't even have that for Jesus. Interesting. As a matter of fact, you don't even have ONE SINGLE specific, named source for Jesus. PERIOD! The New Testament was written by anonymous authors. And not one single book was written in a language that Jesus or his disciples spoke. AND not one of the gospels was written in his lifetime. Should I go on?? I will anyways. Not one single historian, poet, philosopher or government official that lived during the time of Jesus, or within nearly a hundred years of his death, wrote anything about him. Weird, right? You'd think he'd be mentioned once. Or that one of the guys who dedicated their lives to following him and worshiping him, and witnessed his resurrection would have jotted down a few sentences. But no. Apparently that wasn't important??? Okaaaay... When that's all said and done, you think that it is somehow OUR duty to prove to YOU that your Johnny Come Lately God isn't the real deal. Sorry, sweetie. The proof is on you. When it's all said and done is becomes glaringly obvious that your god (which came MUCH later) simply followed the same old tired God formula that the rest of them do. It doesn't stop at your God myth either. Your holidays (the major ones) all come straight from Pagan lore as well. :-D (Next time you enjoy a candy cane keep in mind that the Yule colors of white and red are meant to represent the union of the God and Goddess. The white represents the God's semen and the red represents the Goddesses menstrual blood. So suck on THAT Jesus boy!). I also LOVE how you denounce every source by claiming that the archeologist, historian, religious scholar, anthropologist, etc is some big Jesus Myth conspirator. That sure makes it a nice and convenient way to ignore ALL the evidence. But, I digress. This part of your sham is so unimportant and so incredibly juvenile I don't even need to dwell on it. I can simply say this - prove Jesus existed using your very same criterion for everyone else. Oh, and don't even think about using that bible of yours because those stories were written by mystery men who never even saw Jesus. So.... Thanks for the laugh! Abigail

I responded: "I found it absolutely hysterical that you demand MORE proof for each - Mithra, Horus and Dionysus - than even exists for Jesus!!" How do you figure that? We have the stories where Jesus does those things. What I'm asking for is the stories where Mithra, Horus, and Dionysus do those things. I'm not asking for evidence that those deities DID those things, of course, just for stories in which they did. "You want exact quotes from specific, named sources that date back to 1 A.D. Yet you don't even have that for Jesus." That's because there are no writing of Jesus that date back to 1 AD. All I'm asking Christ-mythers to do is to present the evidence that they claim to have. What, exactly, is the problem with their doing so? They say the stories where Horus, etc. do these things exist. I'm saying "they do? where?" "As a matter of fact, you don't even have ONE SINGLE specific, named source for Jesus. PERIOD!" You're right. I don't have one. I have several. I have Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians.... And even for non-Christian sources, we have the writings of historians such as Tacitus, Josephus (Antiquities 20) and Pliny the Younger. In all, we have over a thousand pages of text by about fifty different authors from within 150 years of Jesus' time. And for Horus, Mithra, etc. we have a lot of ancient writings about them as well, but none in which they do the things that Christ-mythers claim. "The New Testament was written by anonymous authors." What's your evidence that the writings were ever anonymous? You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but the argument that they were anonymous makes no sense and has no evidence to support it. "And not one single book was written in a language that Jesus or his disciples spoke." Considering that Greek was the primary language of the Roman empire in their day, they almost certainly spoke it. It wasn't their mother tongue, but it would have been difficult to get by in 1st century Rome without a basic understanding of it. "AND not one of the gospels was written in his lifetime." Since they all contain the details of his death, resurrection and ascension, that's a given. Is anyone saying otherwise? "Should I go on??" Up to you, but keep in mind that all I'm asking for is evidence for the Christ-myther claims. If you have any of that, then please do go on. "Not one single historian, poet, philosopher or government official that lived during the time of Jesus, or within nearly a hundred years of his death, wrote anything about him." Incorrect. At least three Roman historians wrote about Jesus within a hundred years of His death. Josephus wrote about Him around 93 AD. Tacitus wrote about him around 116 AD. Pliny the Younger wrote about him around 112 AD. Since Jesus died around 32 AD, all of that was within 100 years of his death. "Or that one of the guys who dedicated their lives to following him and worshiping him, and witnessed his resurrection would have jotted down a few sentences. But no." Actually, several did. There's a collection of these writings in the Bible's New Testament. "When that's all said and done, you think that it is somehow OUR duty to prove to YOU that your Johnny Come Lately God isn't the real deal." All I'm asking Christ-mythers to do is to present the evidence that they claim to have. If they don't have that evidence, then they should admit that they don't. If they do, then they should present it. What, exactly, is the problem with that? "When it's all said and done is becomes glaringly obvious that your god (which came MUCH later) simply followed the same old tired God formula that the rest of them do." Then why is it that no one can find pre-Christian examples of gods which followed this formula? They claim that these gods are all over the place, that there are stories and heiroglyphs making this stuff completely obvious. But whenever I say to them, "okay, so where are these stories and hieroglyphs so I can see them for myself?", they slink away. Why is that? "I also LOVE how you denounce every source by claiming that the archeologist, historian, religious scholar, anthropologist, etc is some big Jesus Myth conspirator. That sure makes it a nice and convenient way to ignore ALL the evidence." What evidence? You do know what "evidence" is, right? It's the stuff Christ-mythers claim to have, but clearly don't. "I can simply say this - prove Jesus existed using your very same criterion for everyone else." I'm not asking anyone to prove that Horus, etc. existed, just to prove that there are stories about them which claim that they did these things, which is exactly what they're claiming. We have those stories for Jesus. We don't have them for Horus, etc. "Oh, and don't even think about using that bible of yours because those stories were written by mystery men who never even saw Jesus. So...." Is that one more thing that you have no evidence for, or do you have evidence for this idea? David

Abby responded: Before I reply to your silly and juvenile response I have 2 questions I need you to answer for me. 1. What exactly was your problem with the books you read on this subject? I want to hear some criticism you had of the books you have read on the subject of the Dionysus/Osiris/Horus.Mithras myths or the books you have read about the Jesus myth comparison. By criticisms I mean, issues with the authors research methodologies or direct criticisms of their reference lists. You should be able to be give me at least one specific example for each book you have read that you claim is insufficient in its proof. 2. Tell me what you DO know about Osiris. Tell me a few things that you accept as being a part of the Osiris myth. If you would rather do this for Dionysus, fine. But please explain what you know of one of the God Man characters. As soon as I get your response I will directly address your bizarre statements in your email to me. Thanks, Abigail

I responded: "1. What exactly was your problem with the books you read on this subject?" My problem isn't with the books, it's with the people who claim that these deities' stories show these parallels without ever having bothered to read the stories for themselves. If you'll notice, I don't go after the books on my website, just the claims themselves. "2. Tell me what you DO know about Osiris. Tell me a few things that you accept as being a part of the Osiris myth." Osiris was a god of the underworld, who judged the dead. He was the husband of Isis, and was killed by his brother, Set. After his murder by Set, Isis put the pieces of his body back together and had sex with his corpse, producing Horus, who would later avenge Osiris' murder by defeating Set. "If you would rather do this for Dionysus, fine." I can do any of the deities that Christ-mythers claim inspired the Jesus story, except for those like Beddru, Mikado, etc. that they just made up and were never part of any mythology in the first place. David

Abigail responded: How can you claim to not believe in the Jesus myth parallels without having any criticisms of the books on the subject? That makes NO sense. You make it sound like you have no issue with the parallels being true at all. Instead, your beef is with people who claim these parallels exist without having properly researched them at all. In other words, people who don't do their own homework piss you off. But this isn't what you claim at all. You claim the parallels don't exist. This IS your claim. And you tell the world that if someone can prove it to you you will give them $1000. This means that you believe firmly that these parallels don't exist. Then you say that you don't have ANY criticisms of the books written on the subject?? How can that even be possible? In your 1st email to me you stated that there existed no evidence for these parallels. You stated: "but keep in mind that all I'm asking for is evidence for the Christ-myther claims" and "Then why is it that no one can find pre-Christian examples of gods which followed this formula? They claim that these gods are all over the place, that there are stories and heiroglyphs making this stuff completely obvious. But whenever I say to them, "okay, so where are these stories and hieroglpyhs so I can see them for myself?"" and "What evidence? You do know what "evidence" is, right? " These are all your words, David. So I will ask you one more time. What is the issue with the books that you have read on the subject? What is your criticism with the evidence provided in these books. You should have absolutely NO problem telling me this. What books have you read on this subject and what is your criticism of the evidence presented in these books? This isn't a hard question. In other words (so you don't waste more of my time skating around this extremely obvious point) there are many books on these topics. These books contain evidence. What is your issue with these books and the evidence they present? So you know a couple of things about Osiris. How do you know these things? How do you know that these are indeed facts about his myth and why do you believe that these facts are true? -Abigail

I responded: "How can you claim to not believe in the Jesus myth parallels without having any criticisms of the books on the subject?" The same way I can claim not to believe in unicorns without having any criticisms on the books on the subject. "You make it sound like you have no issue with the parallels being true at all." If they were true, I'd have no issues with that. "Instead, your beef is with people who claim these parallels exist without having properly researched them at all. In other words, people who don't do their own homework piss you off." More like, people who make claims that they're unable or unwilling to back up with evidence piss me off, especially if they're trying to convince other people that those claims are true. "And you tell the world that if someone can prove it to you you will give them $1000. This means that you believe firmly that these parallels don't exist." I do firmly believe that they aren't part of those deities' mythology, yes. Hypothetically, there may be stories out there where the deities do these things. But until I see some kind of evidence for these stories existing, I won't believe that they do. "In your 1st email to me you stated that there existed no evidence for these parallels." If there was, Christ-mythers would be willing to show it to anyone who asked. Instead, anytime anyone asks them for it, or even offers them $1000 for it, they can never find it. To me, that strongly suggests that there is no evidence for the parallels. "What is the issue with the books that you have read on the subject. What is your criticism with the evidence provided in these books. You should have absolutely NO problem telling me this." And as I already answered, my issue isn't with the books, which I haven't read. It's with the people who repeat the claims without having ever seen evidence for these claims. "This isn't a hard question. In other words (so you don't waste more of my time skating around this extremely obvious point) there are many books on these topics. These books contain evidence. What is your issue with these books and the evidence they present?" If they contained evidence, then the people who have read those books should have no problem presenting that evidence to those who ask for it. Instead, they can't, even when offered $1000 for it. If the people who have read those books are unwilling or unable to defend the books' claims, then the claims are clearly indefensible. "So you know a couple of things about Osiris. How do you know these things? How do you know that these are indeed facts about his myth and why do you believe that these facts are true?" Because I've studied the mythology, of course. David

Abigail responded: There it is! That's what I was trying to get you to admit. You haven't bothered to pick up ONE SINGLE BOOK on the subject! You are a joke. You are the worst of the worst David. You walk around crying that people are lying all over the place and that none of it is true and then refuse to read a single book on the subject. Do you see how ridiculous you are? There are LOADS of books on this very subject! Not only do you refuse to pick one up but you walk around with the opinion that they are all erroneous. The really gross part is that you sit back so smugly and ask the world to do your homework for you. You cry that there is no evidence! Then you ignore the books written that have the evidence. Again I ask you how you can claim things to be untrue without bothering to do even the slightest bit of research on it? Your unicorn example is as juvenile as the rest of your approach as well. There are no examples of books written by scholars that claim unicorns to be true. You, David, claim things to be untrue, without doing a shred of reading on the subject - things that scholars write about as being true. The books and the evidence is ALL THERE for you David. If you so desperately want it to be proven to you I suggest picking up some books on the subject. I just wanted to get an understanding oh where you are on a academic level in regards to this topic. Now I see you are at the level of complete novice and pure ignorance. I also am aware that you've never cracked a book about the history of Christianity and have reason to believe that you've never even read your bible. So when I write my big response to you tonight I know that I am literally talking to a complete idiot on the subject. See? I'm one of those people who get pissed off when smug jerks force people to do their homework for them. So you say you've studied the mythology of these Gods? Which books have you read on the subject? None. Okay, so you studied websites then? That's how you know these things are true? You take authors' words for it. Why? Why do you believe what these authors say? Did they present evidence? In other words, you believe SOME parts of the God myths without a lot of tedious proof and evidence, as I guarantee that you've never seen the hieroglyphs of the stories you accept as true. But the parts that you dislike you simply shrug off and decide that suddenly the authors authority isn't any good. You need to personally see the hieroglyphs for those parts. Gotcha. -Abigail

I responded: "There it is! That's what I was trying to get you to admit. You haven't bothered to pick up ONE SINGLE BOOK on the subject! You are a joke." I've never picked up a single book on the subject of unicorns, either. But until I see some kind of evidence for their existence, I can safely say that they probably don't exist. If people were going around claiming that unicorns existed, I would leave it to them to present the evidence. It wouldn't be my job to find their evidence for them. "You cry that there is no evidence! Then you ignore the books written that have the evidence." If they had the evidence, then those who have read those books would be familiar with the evidence, wouldn't they? If so, then why can they never come up with any evidence, even when offered $1000 for it? If Christ-mythers are unwilling or unable to defend the claims made by those books, then they obviously aren't worth spending my money on. If you would like to send me one of those books, I'll gladly read it, but I won't waste my own money on it. "Now I see you are at the level of complete novice and pure ignorance." If I'm ignorant of the evidence for the Christ-myther claims, that's the fault of Christ-mythers, since they're completely unwilling to share their evidence with me. Do you have the evidence? Will you share it? Please? Or are you also unwilling or unable to defend the books? "I'm one of those people who get pissed off when smug jerks force people to do their homework for them." Seriously? So it's *my job* to go looking for the evidence for the claims that Christ-mythers make? Explain that to me. Shouldn't those who are making the claims be the ones to find and present the evidence for those claims? "Okay, so you studied websites then? That's how you know these things are true? You take authors words for it. Why? Why do you believe what these authors say?" Because I've read the stories where those deities do those things, of course. For example, here's the story of Isis, Osiris and Horus, per the Egyptian Book of the Dead: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/egyptdeath/a/bookofthedead5.htm "In other words, you believe SOME parts of the God myths without a lot of tedious proof and evidence," No, I believe the parts for which there is evidence. For the parts for which there is zero evidence, which aren't part of the mythology, I don't believe those parts. "as I guarantee that you've never seen the hieroglyphs of the stories you accept as true." Heiroglyphs or stories are fine. I don't need both. I have seen heiroglyphs for an alternate version of the Horus story, in which he is born of a human queen who is bedded by Amun while he is disguised as her (also human) husband. "But the parts that you dislike you simply shrug off and decide that suddenly the authors authority isn't any good. You need to personally see the hieroglyphs for those parts" Or the stories. Or some kind of evidence. I'm sorry if that strikes you as unreasonable, but I won't believe things for which there is no evidence. If you have evidence, feel free to present it. If you don't have any evidence, then feel free to continue to duck and dodge and find ways to blame me for not finding the evidence for you. David

Abigail responded: I've never picked up a single book on the subject of unicorns, either. But until I see some kind of evidence for their existence, I can safely say that they probably don't exist. If people were going around claiming that unicorns existed, I would leave it to them to present the evidence. It wouldn't be my job to find their evidence for them. What scholar is claiming that unicorns exist?? Will you drop your asinine unicorn example?? It makes ZERO sense in light of this conversation. And NOBODY has ever said that it is your job to find evidence for anyone elses claims. That's why the scholars HAVE FOUND THEIR OWN EVIDENCE AND HAVE PRESENTED THIS STUFF IN HUNDREDS OF BOOKS OVER THE YEARS! Duh. If they had the evidence, then those who have read those books would be familiar with the evidence, wouldn't they? If so, then why can they never come up with any evidence, even when offered $1000 for it? If Christ-mythers are unwilling or unable to defend the claims made by those books, then they obviously aren't worth spending my money on. If you would like to send me one of those books, I'll gladly read it, but I won't waste my own money on it. I have read the books. I know the evidence. I don't care about the $1000 that I guarantee you don't even have to give away. The books themselves defend the claims they make! For f***s sake, have you EVER even read a book?? Why is it the job of me or anyone else to literally come to you and present you with the evidence when you obviously have hands to hold books, can read written word, so you are perfectly able to read this stuff on your own. But you have already stated that 1. you haven't ever bothered to read a single book on the subject and 2. refuse to even go out and get a book to read on the subject. And your conclusion based on this pathetic display of ignorance is that the evidence must not exist because you have not seen it. Ummmm...okaaay. If I'm ignorant of the evidence for the Christ-myther claims, that's the fault of Christ-mythers, since they're completely unwilling to share their evidence with me. What the HELL are you talking about?? Have you been refused sale of their books?? Have someone blocked your entry from going into a bookstore or library? How are they unwilling to share their claims? They took the time to do all the research for you, got a publisher, published their findings and have made their work accessible to all with eyes and the ability to read! Take the next step, David. Read a book! A little education would do you good. Do you have the evidence? Will you share it? Please? Or are you also unwilling or unable to defend the books? I have all the evidence you need. I will share it. After I repeatedly tell you what a juvenile, moronic, illogical, jerk you are for refusing to do a single bit of your own research. Seriously? So it's *my job* to go looking for the evidence for the claims that Christ-mythers make? YES!!!!!!!! Explain that to me. Shouldn't those who are making the claims be the ones to find and present the evidence for those claims? THEY ARE THE ONES FINDING AND PRESENTING THE EVIDENCE!!!!! In things CALLED BOOKS!!!!!!! When has it EVER been the case David that experts email you directly with all their evidence instead of putting it in books for the entire population? ? If you want to become a doctor do you go to school, buy books which were written by experts in the field and study them? Or do you sit at home and expect doctors to come to you and present you with all the information you need to become a doctor? If you wanted to know how to do your own taxes would you go and buy a book on how to do so or would you expect an accountant to come to you and show you step by step how to do it? Here's the way the world works: experts and scholars go out and do tons of research on subjects and write books presenting all the evidence. Then people, like you and me, who want to know about things, we go out and buy a book written by the experts. We don't sit back and complain that the experts aren't coming directly to us and putting on presentations and if they do not do this for us then the stuff they write about must not be true.This is why people write books, David. Because it would take too much time to email and call everyone personally to explain their findings. So they write them in books. Then you don't get to denounce everything written in books that you refuse to pick up. Are you really this dense? I think you should try this next time you take a class. When the professor asks you why you keep failing the exams you tell them that you weren't given the answers. You can't be bothered to read a book on a subject. Because I've read the stories where those deities do those things, of course. For example, here's the story of Isis, Osiris and Horus, per the Egyptian Book of the Dead: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/egyptdeath/a/bookofthedead5.htm Funny you should mention the Egyptian Book of the Dead.... part of the evidence you seek is right there. No, I believe the parts for which there is evidence. For the parts for which there is zero evidence, which aren't part of the mythology, I don't believe those parts. But you refuse to go out and read the evidence that is out there for all to see ...so here we go again....in your retarded circle of ignorance.... Or the stories. Or some kind of evidence. I'm sorry if that strikes you as unreasonable, but I won't believe things for which there is no evidence. If you have evidence, feel free to present it. If you don't have any evidence, then feel free to continue to duck and dodge and find ways to blame me for not finding the evidence for you. What strikes me as unreasonable is that there are books upon books of this evidence and you sit here and refuse to pick up ANY OF THEM and then think that gives you reason to claim it all a farce. I have all the evidence I need. Want to know why? Because I went out and got it. I'm not a little baby who closes their eyes, plugs their ears and then states that it doesn't exist because I can't see or hear it. I got the evidence. Because i found it. Some of it literally took 2 clicks of my mouse as well. -Abby P.S. I was right about you never studying the history of Christianity, wasn't I? I was also right about you having never read the bible, wasn't I? Actually, I dropped the unicorn example too quickly.... Have you read the bible David??

I responded: "What scholar is claiming that unicorns exist?? Will you drop your asinine unicorn example?? It makes ZERO sense in light of this conversation. And NOBODY has ever said that it is your job to find evidence for anyone elses claims. That's why the scholars HAVE FOUND THEIR OWN EVIDENCE AND HAVE PRESENTED THIS STUFF IN HUNDREDS OF BOOKS OVER THE YEARS! Duh." If the evidence is that easy to find, then why can't Christ-mythers ever seem to find it? Obviously, if I were to read these books, I'd be just as unable to find the evidence as they are. "I have read the books. I know the evidence." Great. So why not share it? "For f***s sake, have you EVER even read a book??" Hundreds. I've even written five. "But you have already stated that 1. you haven't ever bothered to read a single book on the subject and 2. refuse to even go out and get a book to read on the subject. And your conclusion based on this pathetic display of ignorance is that the evidence must not exist because you have not seen it. Ummmm...okaaay." No, that conclusion is based on the fact that *Christ-mythers* have never seen the evidence. If they had it, they'd be more than happy to share it with the world. Instead, whenever I ask them for any evidence, they either insult me or stop talking to me. "How are they unwilling to share their claims?" Are you willing to share it? If so, please do. Telling me that the only way I'm going to get the evidence is to spend my own money buying these books makes me incredibly suspicious. If you want to send me one free of charge, I'll gladly accept it, read it, and critique it on my website. But asking me to spend *my* money trying to defend *your* claims is beyond ridiculous. Either show me the evidence, or admit that it doesn't exist. "I have all the evidence you need. I will share it. After I repeatedly tell you what a juvenile, moronic, illogical, jerk you are for refusing to do a single bit of your own research." I've done tons of research. In fact, I've done exactly what Christ-mythers refuse to do, which is fact-check the claims against the actual stories from pre-Christian mythology. You might want to try it sometime. "When has it EVER been the case David that experts email you directly with all their evidence instead of putting it in books for the entire population?" Sure they put it in books. And then those people who read the books and want to defend the books' claims in debates use the evidence in those debates, or they stick the evidence on websites for everyone to see, or they e-mail it to people who ask to be shown the evidence. But the fact that Christ-mythers (yourself included) are clearly unwilling and unable to defend those books does a better job than I can ever do at showing the world that the books are indefensible. "If you want to become a doctor do you go to school, buy books which were written by experts in the field and study them? Or do you sit at home and expect doctors to come to you and present you with all the information you need to become a doctor?" Poor analogy. In this case *you* are trying to convince *me* of something, so it's not about me wanting to become something-or-other. If you were trying to sell me a certain medical text, attributing certain claims to that text, then I would expect you to defend those claims before I'd be willing to buy that text. "Funny you should mention the Egyptian Book of the Dead.... part of the evidence you seek is right there." Where? Or do I have to buy a book before you'll tell me? I was talking to a Christ-myther a while back who tried telling me that the Book of the Dead showed Horus being born of a virgin, crucified and resurrected, apparently not realizing that the Book of the Dead is online for anyone to read, and thus easily disproves his claims. "But you refuse to go out and read the evidence that is out there for all to see ...so here we go again....in your retarded circle of ignorance...." No, I refuse to spend my own money on books that Christ-mythers are unwilling and unable to defend. If the evidence existed, they'd be parading it for the world to see. Instead, all I ever get from them is insults and excuses. I don't know how much more obvious it can be that the evidence doesn't exist. You know it and I know it, so why pretend? "What strikes me as unreasonable is that there are books upon books of this evidence and you sit here and refuse to pick up ANY OF THEM and then think that gives you reason to claim it all a farce." No, what gives me reason to claim it all a farce is the fact that Christ-mythers, despite having no problem spreading these ridicilous claims all over the internet, refuse to spread evidence in support of the claims. If the evidence was in the books, they'd have no problem finding it when people asked to see it. I don't know if you happened to notice when reading my conversation with OneLove, but he said that he had the evidence to prove the claims, but lost it when his hard drive crashed. But then he later said that he had (at that time) all of Acharya's books. If the evidence is in Acharya's books, then how did he lose it all when his hard drive crashed? Obviously, he was admitting that the evidence isn't in her books. "I have all the evidence I need. Want to know why? Because I went out and got it. I'm not a little baby who closes their eyes, plugs their ears and then states that it doesn't exist because I can't see or hear it. I got the evidence. Because i found it. Some of it literally took 2 clicks of my mouse as well." If you want to share the evidence, feel free. If you really had it, you'd be dying to share it with me. But you clearly refuse to. That's the best evidence I've ever seen against this Christ-myther nonsense. Actually, I dropped the unicorn example too quickly.... Have you read the bible David?? Yes, but I accept that much of the Old Testament stories are mythology, not history. David

Abigail responded: If the evidence is that easy to find, then why can't Christ-mythers ever seem to find it? Obviously, if I were to read these books, I'd be just as unable to find the evidence as they are. Who are the Christ-mythers you keep talking about? Random people who email you? The authors of the books you refuse to read? Who? So basically you are pitching a fit because people won't take books and type out all the pertinent information in them and email them to you. Because you are unwilling to read a book for yourself. These arguments are childish, illogical and filled with poor reasoning. If a person tells you that they know of excellent books on the subject you wouldn't read them anyways. You would complaint that they don't retype the book out to you. See how this reeks of avoidance and childish game playing? Great. So why not share it? I will. But I refuse to spend MY time retyping books for you that were already written because you refuse to go get a book and read it for yourself. So me giving you the evidence will be pointless. You will never read it and then tell everyone that I don't have evidence because I refused to retype it from books that I own. Abigail:"For f***s sake, have you EVER even read a book??" Me: Hundreds. I've even written five. LOL!!!!!!!! What? Children's fiction? There is no way in HELL you ever penned anything scholarly or historical, that's for DAMN SURE!! You can't even show logical reasoning here. No, that conclusion is based on the fact that *Christ-mythers* have never seen the evidence. If they had it, they'd be more than happy to share it with the world. Instead, whenever I ask them for any evidence, they either insult me or stop talking to me. What Christ-mythers have not seen the evidence? Who are you talking about? How can you POSSIBLY know what other people have seen?? Oh, wait. You know this because people don't retype books and email them to you. Because complete strangers don't spend HOURS doing this for you it obviously means that nobody has ever seen the evidence that has been written about in hundreds of books by scholars all over the world. Your conclusion keep getting more and more fantastical, David. Are you on medication for a mental illness? Are you willing to share it? If so, please do. Telling me that the only way I'm going to get the evidence is to spend my own money buying these books makes me incredibly suspicious. If you want to send me one free of charge, I'll gladly accept it, read it, and critique it on my website. But asking me to spend *my* money trying to defend *your* claims is beyond ridiculous. Either show me the evidence, or admit that it doesn't exist. Now you want ME to send YOU free stuff??? Are you insane?? Books exist. F***ing pick one up. Your insistence on ignoring all the books on this subject is YOUR problem and YOUR problem alone. Don't you dare try and blame me for your inability to research this subject. So now it's my fault for not buying you the books on the subject you are asking people to tell you about. Okay. I've done tons of research. In fact, I've done exactly what Christ-mythers refuse to do, which is fact-check the claims against the actual stories from pre-Christian mythology. You might want to try it sometime. Bulls**t. I don't buy it for a second. If you had done your research we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sure they put it in books. And then those people who read the books and want to defend the books' claims in debates use the evidence in those debates, or they stick the evidence on websites for everyone to see, or they e-mail it to people who ask to be shown the evidence. But the fact that Christ-mythers (yourself included) are clearly unwilling and unable to defend those books does a better job than I can ever do at showing the world that the books are indefensible. I am not a Christ-myther. I have read books by world renown Egyptologists and have seen their translations of heiroglyphs, have read the books written by scholars on the Christ myth parallels, have done HOURS of research checking their sources and comparing their works to what the Egyptologists and other historians have written. I have studied mythology and the history of religion (focusing heavily on Christianity) for over a decade. Based on this tedious research that has spanned over 10 years I am fully aware that the God Man myth has existed prior to Jesus. Jesus isn't important to me. So I am not a Christ-myther. I am a student of religion, philosophy and history. Now you want me to do the same thing for you AND type it all out in a huge email just because you are too lazy to read some books on your own. So basically you want me to write a book solely for you. Ummm, no. But I will gladly point you in the direction of where this evidence exists. You can research until your little heart's content. But what you don't get to do is claim things are a farce UNTIL you've done your research, or, at the very least READ ONE SINGLE BOOK ON THE SUBJECT! Poor analogy. In this case *you* are trying to convince *me* of something, so it's not about me wanting to become something-or-other. If you were trying to sell me a certain medical text, attributing certain claims to that text, then I would expect you to defend those claims before I'd be willing to buy that text. Perfect analogy actually because YOU are the one who wants to know this stuff! You are the one who erected a website dedicated to you wanting to know this stuff. You have even offered people money to teach you this stuff and do all your homework for you! There is nothing to convince you of. The facts are there for your taking. You are asking to be TAUGHT something. Big difference. If you want to learn about something then LEARN IT! Do just like the rest of the intelligent adults do and go seek out the experts in the fields. Find their books, articles, reports and read them. This is actually really simple stuff here. But you have an avoidance to the truth that keeps you arguing in these juvenile circles. All you have to do is read some books. THAT'S it! And you would instantly stop advertising your ignorance all over the internet. Abigail: "Funny you should mention the Egyptian Book of the Dead.... part of the evidence you seek is right there." David: Where? Or do I have to buy a book before you'll tell me? I was talking to a Christ-myther a while back who tried telling me that the Book of the Dead showed Horus being born of a virgin, crucified and resurrected, apparently not realizing that the Book of the Dead is online for anyone to read, and thus easily disproves his claims. The Book of the Dead DOES talk about Osiris' resurrection. I'm not aware of it saying that about Horus. It has been awhile since I have read it though so i could totally be wrong about that. The Book of the Dead along with hundreds of funerary texts explain much of the Osiris myth - his being born of a God father and human mother, walking the earth in humanly form with a divine soul, being killed and resurrected. This is all gotten by reading and studying the hundreds of texts. That's why you need to READ A BOOK written by the experts on this. Nobody wants to sift through hundreds of funerary texts. You are more than welcome to though as they are all attainable in print these days. But you will never understand them by reading them all on your own. You don't know much about the ancient Egyptian religions. You seem to think that Osiris is one god that has one mythology. Anyone who has studied this subject, as you claim to have done, should know this is not the case. There were many versions of Osiris and many different stories and myths attributed to him. You are talking about a DEAD religion written in a DEAD language of an ANCIENT civilization. The stories, texts, etc that we have are numerous (thousands) and are scattered throughout different temples, texts, etc. Egyptologists have excavated these sites and have spent YEARS piecing together the myths of these ancient gods and goddesses. So if you think that you are going to get the full story by simply trying to read the funerary texts on your own, you are mistaken. No, I refuse to spend my own money on books that Christ-mythers are unwilling and unable to defend. If the evidence existed, they'd be parading it for the world to see. Instead, all I ever get from them is insults and excuses. I don't know how much more obvious it can be that the evidence doesn't exist. You know it and I know it, so why pretend? I defend every book I have ever read on these subjects. I have been thorough in researching the better books on the subjects and made sure to get the better ones that contain well researched evidence and hearty reference sections. I am parading the evidence for the world to see by telling people what these books claim, debating the subject with people who don't know about it and arguing with people like you. I back up every single one of my claims too by giving the people I talk to the names of the books where I found the evidence. Now if a person says, "you have to personally show me the evidence" (how does one do this anyways? I don't own any pieces of the Pyramid Texts) I will show them the evidence by showing them the book I got it from. Those books contain the evidence and contain large reference sections for cross referencing, which any decent student or researcher should do. I am sharing the evidence with people by explaining the teachings within the books. How else can I "show" you the evidence? It's all right there in the books. I am not going to read them aloud to you. Sorry. No, what gives me reason to claim it all a farce is the fact that Christ-mythers, despite having no problem spreading these ridicilous claims all over the internet, refuse to spread evidence in support of the claims. If the evidence was in the books, they'd have no problem finding it when people asked to see it. I have addressed this "argument" of yours like 10 times now. Read a f***ing book and quite your bitching. Seriously dude. Grow up. I don't know if you happened to notice when reading my conversation with OneLove, but he said that he had the evidence to prove the claims, but lost it when his hard drive crashed. But then he later said that he had (at that time) all of Acharya's books. If the evidence is in Acharya's books, then how did he lose it all when his hard drive crashed? Obviously, he was admitting that the evidence isn't in her books. Maybe OneLove meant that he had copies of the books on his hard drive? And his hard drive crashed? And that he wasn't interested in wasting 2 days retyping a book in an email to you because you are too big of a baby to read a book for yourself? Just a thought. Based on what I have seen from you I am willing to bet money on this being the case. I'll bet you that same $1000 that you never even read Acharya S' book(s). So none of that even matters, does it? If you want to share the evidence, feel free. If you really had it, you'd be dying to share it with me. But you clearly refuse to. That's the best evidence I've ever seen against this Christ-myther nonsense. I'm not dying to share it with you because you won't read it. Plain and simple. I will eventually give you my sources of the evidence. but like I said, 1st we need to discuss your fear of reading and figure out why you think you don't have to do any research. Yes, but I accept that much of the Old Testament stories are mythology, not history. You've actually read the bible? Are you a Christian? Who do you think wrote the New Testament? I want ACTUAL names of the authors here. You think that the actual authors of the New testament all were eye witnesses to Jesus himself? Am I reading your 1st email to me correctly? You believe that the NT was written during the time that Jesus lived, written by people who personally hung out with him and you think you know the names of the people who wrote the NT?? Is this all correct? Care to share some of this with me? (I will get into your historic "evidence" for Jesus at another time. Trust me, that topic is not dead. I have yet to even begin on that one...) And I'm glad you admit that the Old Testament is mythology. Unicorns are mentioned around 8 times in the OT. -Abby I just reread your last response and wanted to say something about this little nugget of yours: "Telling me that the only way I'm going to get the evidence is to spend my own money buying these books makes me incredibly suspicious. If you want to send me one free of charge, I'll gladly accept it, read it, and critique it on my website. But asking me to spend *my* money trying to defend *your* claims is beyond ridiculous." What are you suspicious of? (Further proof of a mental illness... paranoid delusions aplenty!) Showing you books that contain evidence makes you suspicious. Weird. And now you think that these are MY claims. Mine. Yes David. I cooked up this Jesus parallel story all by myself just to really freak you out. LOL! Ummm, this aren't MY claims! These are the claims of Herodotus, Apuleius, Samuel Kramer, Justin Martyr, Auguste Mariette, E.A. Wallis Budge, E. de Rouge, Dr. Brugsch, Plutarch, Joseph Campbell... just to name a few of the scholars and authors off the top of my head. So these are not MY claims. YOU are the one with the bizarre claims here. You claim (and have an entire website dedicated to this claim) that the God Man myths do not exist prior to Jesus. This is the claim, and the only claim, that brought us together. This claim is YOURS, not mine. So it is you who has a claim that needs to be proven. My claim is that the evidence exists and that you are too lazy and afraid to read it yourself. And the longer you go without picking up a book the more I am proven right in my claim. :-) P.S. I forgot to mention in my earlier email that the Egyptian Book of the Dead also states that Osiris is the One God who can bestow upon you everlasting life and that he alone had the power of making "men and women born again". I would give you the direct evidence of this but I can't seem to find the keys for "downward 3 prongs, long upside down U, half moon, sideways ladder, owl, person sitting holding drum, 3 dashes, some bird thing, a person sitting with knees up, another owl, the leg of cattle and another bird" on my lap top. So once again, it all comes down to putting on you finally manning up and doing your own reading! -Abigail

I responded: "Who are the Christ-mythers you keep talking about? Random people who email you? The authors of the books you refuse to read? Who?" People who put up web pages repeating the claims about Horus, etc., or who post these claims in forums, or e-mail me, or whatever. Basically, they're trying to spread the claims all over the internet in hopes that people will be gullible enough to believe them. But, for some strange reason, the one thing they never have is the evidence to back up these claims. They've never read versions of the stories where these things happen, but are apparently just taking people's words for it. "So basically you are pitching a fit because people won't take books and type out all the pertinent information in them and email them to you." Or put it on a web page, or anything. It's their job, if they're going to try to convince people that the claims are true, to provide evidence in support of the claims. If they're unwilling to back up their ridiculous claims with evidence, then they shouldn't be spreading the claims in the first place. "If a person tells you that they know of excellent books on the subject you wouldn't read them anyways." If Christ-mythers showed the slightest inclination to defend the books, I might consider it. "You would complaint that they don't retype the book out to you." I don't need the entire book, just the portions of the ancient stories where the deities do those things. Face it, if they had the evidence, they'd be glad to share it. "I will. But I refuse to spend MY time retyping books for you that were already written because you refuse to go get a book and read it for yourself. So me giving you the evidence will be pointless." So you will, but you won't? Which is it? Basically, you seem to be saying that it's *my* fault that you won't present me with any evidence in support of the claims. "What Christ-mythers have not seen the evidence? Who are you talking about? How can you POSSIBLY know what other people have seen?? Oh, wait. You know this because people don't retype books and email them to you." All I'm asking for is evidence for at least *half* of the Christ-myther claims for any *one* deity. That would be only about ten or fifteen items. That would hardly require retyping an entire book and emailing it to me. All one would have to do is point me to a version of the story where those things happen. If you search the web, you can find versions of ancient mythological stories all over the place. Just give me a link to one of the versions of the story in which Horus is virgin-born, crucified, resurrected, etc. Aren't there versions of this story online anywhere? If not, why doesn't some Christ-myther who has read this story just put it up for all to see? Can't they find it? "Because complete strangers don't spend HOURS doing this for you it obviously means that nobody has ever seen the evidence that has been written about in hundreds of books by scholars all over the world." How would that take HOURS? Quoting me the relevant passage from the story in which, say, Horus was crucified should take less than a minute. "Now you want ME to send YOU free stuff??? Are you insane?? Books exist. F***ing pick one up. Your insistence on ignoring all the books on this subject is YOUR problem and YOUR problem alone." I don't care if you send them to me or not. But since you're the one who insists that the evidence is in these books, I thought maybe you wanted to share it. Guess I was wrong. "Bulls**t. I don't buy it for a second. If you had done your research we wouldn't be having this conversation." Then why are we having it? "I am not a Christ-myther. I have read books by world renown Egyptologists and have seen their translations of heiroglyphs, have read the books written by scholars on the Christ myth parallels, have done HOURS of research checking their sources and comparing their works to what the Egyptologists and other historians have written." So, basically, as long as more than one person writes that the claims are true, you accept the claims as true? Let me ask you this - have you ever read versions of those deities' stories where they did the things that Christ-mythers claim they did? "Perfect analogy actually because YOU are the one who wants to know this stuff!" Only if it were true. The fact that Christ-mythers are unable or unwilling to provide evidence for the claims they spread all over the internet convinces any rational person that they have none. "You are the one who erected a website dedicated to you wanting to know this stuff. You have even offered people money to teach you this stuff and do all your homework for you! There is nothing to convince you of. The facts are there for your taking. You are asking to be TAUGHT something. Big difference. If you want to learn about something then LEARN IT!" I have. Again, I researched the mythological stories and saw what happened in them. I looked at images of the Egyptian heiroglyphs to see what ancient people believed about Horus, Osiris and other ancient deities. The stories and heiroglyphs show a very different story than what Christ-mythers claim the stories show. "The Book of the Dead DOES talk about Osiris' resurrection." I agree that it does, and say so on my website. But since the details are so very different than that for Jesus (Osiris is brought back just long enough to have sex with Isis and produce Horus, then dies again), it's unlikely to have influenced the story of Jesus. "I'm not aware of it saying that about Horus. It has been awhile since I have read it though so i could totally be wrong about that." You're not. One Christ-myther, as I think I mentioned, told me that it did, but I've read it looking at the story, and Horus never even dies in the Book of the Dead. "The Book of the Dead along with hundreds of funerary texts explain much of the Osiris myth - his being born of a God father and human mother," No, it says Osiris' mother, Nut, was a "sky goddess". "walking the earth in humanly form with a divine soul, being killed and resurrected. This is all gotten by reading and studying the hundreds of texts. That's why you need to READ A BOOK written by the experts on this. Nobody wants to sift through hundreds of funerary texts" All of this stuff has been translated to English and put online, so it's not hard to research. "You don't know much about the ancient Egyptian religions. You seem to think that Osiris is one god that has one mythology. Anyone who has studied this subject, as you claim to have done, should know this is not the case. There were many versions of Osiris and many different stories and myths attributed to him." I agree that there are, and mentioned the different versions of the Horus story in my last email. If a Christ-myther is saying that there's an alternate version of the Osiris story where he does all of those things, then why not just put that alternate version online for people to see? Or if it is already online, why not just shoot me a link to it? "I am parading the evidence for the world to see by telling people what these books claim, debating the subject with people who don't know about it and arguing with people like you." So you're doing everything *but* presenting the evidence? Just so you know, presenting the evidence is a better way to go, if you're hoping to convince people that the claims are true. "I back up every single one of my claims too by giving the people I talk to the names of the books where I found the evidence. Now if a person says, "you have to personally show me the evidence" (how does one do this anyways? I don't own any pieces of the Pyramid Texts)." They've been translated to English, right? Why not just type in the relevant English translation? "Maybe OneLove meant that he had copies of the books on his hard drive? And his hard drive crashed?" If I recall correctly, he said that the information on his hard drive was his verification of the claims in Acharya's books, not the books themselves. "And that he wasn't interested in wasting 2 days retyping a book in an email to you because you are too big of a baby to read a book for yourself?" Just typing in the relevant portions of the stories would hardly take 2 days. Maybe ten minutes. "I'm not dying to share it with you because you won't read it. Plain and simple." Again, you're saying it's *my* fault that *you* won't provide evidence for the claims. "I will eventually give you my sources of the evidence. but like I said, 1st we need to discuss your fear of reading and figure out why you think you don't have to do any research." Again, I've done the research. The only thing I won't do is spend my own money buying books that Christ-mythers refuse to defend. "You've actually read the bible? Are you a Christian? Who do you think wrote the New Testament? I want ACTUAL names of the authors here." The evidence suggests that the authors are people like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, and James. "You think that the actual authors of the New testament all were eye witnesses to Jesus himself?" There's no single answer which encompasses all of the NT authors. Matthew, John and James were eyewitnesses. Luke and Paul were not, unless you count Paul's encounter on the road to Damascus, which I'm guessing you don't. "Am I reading your 1st email to me correctly? You believe that the NT was written during the time that Jesus lived," No, it was written later. Since they talk about Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension, they couldn't have been written before those events happened. "written by people who personally hung out with him and you think you know the names of the people who wrote the NT??" Do I know that Matthew, Mark, etc were the authors with 100% certainty? No. But since the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that they were the authors, I'm willing to accept that they probably were, the same way I accept the credit authorship for most ancient documents. If history ascribes a writing to a certain author, I'm inclined to accept the authorship as correct, unless there is significant evidence to the contrary. I think Hebrews is the only NT book for which there is little evidence regarding its authorship. "Care to share some of this with me?" Absolutely. When someone asks me for evidence for claims I'm making, I'm happy to provide it. The fact that the texts are widely and unanimously credited to those authors is definite evidence for the authorship. Only if there was contrary evidence, like that the books could be shown to have been written outside of the "authors" lifetimes, or they have also been credited to other authors, would there be cause to doubt the credited authorships. We also have confirmation of the authorships from other sources. Early historian Irenaeus (circa 175 AD) confirms the authorship of the all four Gospels, as does Diatessaron (circa 170 AD). Early historians Papias (circa 125 ad) and Origen (circa 240 ad) all confirm that Matthew was the writer of the Gospel attributed to him. Mark's authorship is also confirmed by them, as well as Justyn Martyr (circa 150 ad), Clement of Alexandria (circa 200 ad), and Tertullian (circa 207 ad), among many others. Luke's was also confirmed by Clement of Alexandria, as well as by Muratori and Tertullian. Theophilus (circa 170 ad) confirms the authorship of John. David

Abigail responded: Okay, 1st of all, if you had bothered to read ANYTHING on this subject you would know that the things you say are mindlessly ignorant. It would NOT take 20 minutes to type all that proof out for you. It would take HOURS over DAYS. I'm the one with the pile of books sitting here on the subject and the huge list of links to the stuff. You want me to go through every page of each of these sources, find just the parts that are specifically related to what YOU want to know and type all that out. I won't do it. What I WILL do is give you a nice list of resources where you can go and piece together all the proof you want. But you won't do it because as we've established, you are lazy and afriad. You seem to think that there are single stories that contain all the proof for each diety. This is where actually reading books would come in handy. I wouldn't have to explain all this basic stuff to you. What we have are thousands of pieces of evidence from temples, pyramids, chambers, etc etc etc. Some of these things contain 2 lines about the diety. 2 lines in THOUSANDS. What the experts (the list of scholars I have mentioned to you several times now) have done is spend YEARS studying, translating and piecing together all these writings. From all this they get more complete pictures. And then the experts can put together a larger mythology based on the thousands of pieces of scattered evidence. That's why YOU READ BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT! Because nobody wants to take the time to sift through all that s**t and type out line for line of the proof just for you. Experts have already done this. They put them in those things we call books. So I will give you a nice list of books that will give you an excellent base for this stuff. Many of these books were written by the actual people who helped translate the works and have actually handled the ancient documents. And yes, I take the word of the many experts. Why wouldn't I? You do it as well in your research. You listed about 4 or 5 ancient men who you think are good enough to believe when it comes to the age and authors of the New Testament. So once again, you hold those with opposing views at a much higher standard than you do for yourself and the people who agree with you. That's actually been my main beef with you from the start. I don't know how to read ancient egyptian writings. I must've missed that day in school. So I take the word of the experts who have literally dedicated their lives to the study of such things. You have any reasons why I shouldn't do this? And yes, I have seen the hieroglyphs that they have translated. But again, I don't speak that language so I take their word. I never said that the Egyptian Book of the Dead ALONE says that stuff about Osiris. What I clearly stated was the the Book of the Dead, along with hundreds of funerary texts, help to paint that image of Osiris that I described. But, you, in your ultimate wisdom read the Book of the Dead (with no training on how to read it) and decided that's that. This is where books on the subject come in handy again. See how studying helps?? Now, you, as an uneducated Westerner, cannot just pick up the Book of the Dead, read it and get a full or even decent understanding. Once again, this is a dead religion, in a dead language of an ancient civilization. Straight translations will never work. When I was a student getting my 1st philosophy degree I tried to read the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I was lost. I had no clue what it all meant. Based on my simple reading of the English translation I thought that Buddhism was a religion full of demons, gods and other supernatural beings. This could not be further from the truth. I sat down once a week for a full semester with a professor of Eastern Philosophy and he helped me understand this book. I also had to read 2 companion books written by experts on the subject. This is how difficult it is to try and read a straight translation to get a real understanding. It's impossible. There are many words that don't even have modern English counterparts! So they did the best they could and translated it literally. This is the same situation with the Pyramid Texts, Egyptian Book of the Dead, Coffin Texts, etc. You can't just sit down as an untrained person and expect to get a decent understanding of them. You need the help of the experts who have studied every aspect of these cultures and know the most about this stuff out of anyone. I am completely baffled at how this is all news to you. You also seem to be confusing the Mystery religions with the actual ancient religions of Egypt, Greece, etc. Again, books would help you here. The Mystery religions are where much of the tedious parallels with christ appear. The problem with these Mystery religions are that they popped up and existed between (loose approximation here) the 1st and 4th centuries A.D. They existed right around the time when Christianity popped up. It's all very convoluted. There are experts on all sides of this topic - ones that believe Christianity copied the Mysteries, ones that think the Mysteries copied Christianity and ones that think the evidence is insufficient to truly say either way. This is why you can't find evidence that dates back before 1 AD for some of this stuff. HOWEVER... there are still many aspects of Christ that existed prior to he allegedly did. By thousands of years. These aspects come from a long list of God Man dieties. This is why it is obvious that much of the myth of Jesus is made up of these common God Man features. These features include things like - being born of a God, communion, ressurestion, being a savior, performing miracles, being killed (crucifixtion specifically is not important here as it is to be expected that the Gods would be killed in ways familiar to the societies they sprang from), virgin birth. I'm sure I am forgetting a couple, but you get the point. The virgin birth is interesting too in that I don't see any real decent evidence that even Jesus had this characteristic. The virgin birth was mentioned in TWO of the what? 27 books of the NT? And the 2 stories that mention the virgin birth disagree on so many other details that it is very hard to take either seriously. Funny how noone else but the authors of 2 gospels mention this incredible important aspect. So the virgin birth isn't a big deal for me as Jesus can't even truly claim it. So that's my spiel for now. I didn't even start on the history of the New Testament. That's a WHOLE othere topic that I do plan on getting into with you. But one thing at a time. Please excuse any misspellings or slight errors in dates. I typed this all from my phone. Yes, the whole thing from my phone! So I am not able to run spell check or cross reference anything. Oh, and you never answer my question - Are you a Christian? -Abigail

I responded: "Okay, 1st of all, if you had bothered to read ANYTHING on this subject you would know that the things you say are mindlessly ignorant. It would NOT take 20 minutes to type all that proof out for you. It would take HOURS over DAYS." I'm not asking for ALL of the proof, just the evidence regarding at least half of the Christ-myther claims for any one deity. Portions of the stories, or translations of the relevant heiroglyphs, would be fine. I can't see how that would take hours. "You seem to think that there are single stories that contain all the proof for each diety." Of course not. I'm fine with you taking the evidence from different versions of the stories. "What we have are thousands of pieces of evidence from temples, pyramids, chambers, etc etc etc. Some of these things contain 2 lines about the diety. 2 lines in THOUSANDS." I don't need thousands of lines. One piece of evidence for each claim would be fine. "You listed about 4 or 5 ancient men who you think are good enough to believe when it comes to the age and authors of the New Testament. So once again, you hold those with opposing views at a much higher standard than you do for yourself and the people who agree with you" Not at all. If there was evidence for the idea that the New Testament texts were written by opposing, or anonymous, authors, I would gladly consider that evidence. But that seems to be one more thing that people frequently claim, but never present evidence for. "I don't know how to read ancient egyptian writings. I must've missed that day in school. So I take the word of the experts who have literally dedicated their lives to the study of such things. You have any reasons why I shouldn't do this? And yes, I have seen the hieroglyphs that they have translated. But again, I don't speak that language so I take their word." I don't speak ancient Egyptian either, so I'll gladly take what the translations of the heiroglyphs say. "But, you, in your ultimate wisdom read the Book of the Dead (with no training on how to read it) and decided that's that." I read the English translations. I do know how to read English. "The Mystery religions are where much of the tedious paralells with christ appear." Yet I've seen many Christ-mythers ascribing these parallels to pre-Christian deities such as Horus, Mithra, Buddha, etc, despite the fact that these parallels are not in those stories. That's the reason I'm skeptical of anything coming from anyone making such claims, and am asking for evidence and not just more claims. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be agreeing that many of the parallels that I've listed on my site are indeed bogus, right? You're just saying that despite many of the parallels being fabricated, the ones which are valid are enough to prove copycatting. Is that right? If so, I'm wondering why you think it is that people feel the need to fabricate additional parallels, if the valid parallels are enough to prove copycatting? "There are experts on all sides of this topic - ones that believe Christianity copied the Mysteries, ones that think the Mysteries copied Christianity and ones that think the evidence is insufficient to truly say either way. This is why you can't find evidence that dates back before 1 AD for some of this stuff." That's why I'll only take evidence that dates to pre-Christian times. Evidence regarding deities that may or may not be pre-Christian doesn't prove anything. "HOWEVER... there are still many aspects of Christ that existed prior to he allegedly did. By thousands of years. These aspects come from a long list of God Man dieties. This is why it is obvious that much of the myth of Jesus is made up of these common God Man features. These features include things like - being born of a God, communion, ressurestion, being a savior, performing miracles, being killed (crucifixtion specifically is not important here as it is to be expected that the Gods would be killed in ways familiar to the societies they sprang from), virgin birth." I do agree (and say so on my site) that some of those things are indeed related to some pre-Christian deities. But you can find parallels between any two stories, real or fictional, if you try hard enough. I don't know if you've seen it, but someone back in the 19th century wrote an article pointing out similarities between Napoleon Bonaparte and ancient solar deities, suggesting (though jokingly) that this proves that Napoleon didn't exist. The person who wrote this did so in response to people using similar methods to "disprove" Jesus. There's an English translation of the article here: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nappy.html There's definitely parallels to be found there, but that doesn't suggest that Napoleon didn't exist, right? There's also, as I'm guessing you've seen, lists of similarities between Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy (both elected in '60, lost a child in the White House, were captains on boats, assassinated the Friday after a major holiday, shot in the back of the head while seated next to their wives and in the presence of another couple, of which the man was also wounded, assassin was killed before going to trial, etc). These are far more striking than any valid parallels I've seen between Jesus and pre-Christian deities, but clearly don't suggest that JFK was a fictional character based on Lincoln. When weighing whether one story copies from another, we have to look at both similarities and differences. We also have to, of course, consider the evidence for Jesus' existence, which is stronger than the evidence for almost everyone else from His time or earlier. We have over a thousand pages of text from within 150 years of His time, written by about fifty different authors, some of whom were non-Christians. "The virgin birth is interesting too in that I don't see any real decent evidence that even Jesus had this characteristic. The virgin birth was mentioned in TWO of the what? 27 books of the NT?" If the other 25 books actually contradicted the idea, then perhaps you'd have a point here. Simply saying that the other 25 (most of which weren't biographical in nature) didn't mention a certain detail isn't a rebuttal of that detail. If I were to read 27 articles about a famous person, and only two of them said that his wife's name was "Helen" (with none giving a different name for his wife), I'd be satisfied that his wife's name was "Helen". "And the 2 stories that mention the virgin birth disagree on so many other details that it is very hard to take either seriously." It doesn't work that way. If two accounts of the same series of events disagree on some details but agree on other details, you don't discount the details on which they agree. The accounts of Julius Caesar's assassination disagree on minor details, but no rational person takes that as evidence that Caesar wasn't assassinated. The two authors who wrote about Jesus' birth clearly used different sources, Luke using Mary's version of the events and Matthew using Joseph's, and there's nothing surprising about two different sources remembering details differently. Ask a long-married husband and wife to each describe their wedding day in detail, and I guarantee that they'll remember some things differently from each other. But on the details on which they agree, you can rest assured that those details are probably accurate. "Please excuse any misspellings or slight errors in dates. I typed this all from my phone. Yes, the whole thing from my phone!" I hope you at least have a keyboard on it! I only have the ten number keys where I have to press the number "2" three times in order to type the letter "C". Obviously, I'm not typing these responses on my phone. Oh, and you never answer my question - Are you a Christian? Yes, I do consider myself a Christian, though my beliefs aren't always "mainstream" on matters. For example, I do believe in evolution and, as I mentioned earlier, that many of the Old Testament stories are myth. David

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